Wednesday, June 27, 2007

Illegal Aliens Denied Tuition Break

Governor M. Jodi Rell has vetoed a measure that would grant illegal immigrants the same in-state tuition rates as legal residents of Connecticut; in other words, pay $8,000 instead of $21,000 to attend the University of Connecticut.

This bill was, of course, preposterous. These “students” would have none of the responsibilities of being a citizen, including the ability to vote, or pay income tax or have jury duty. They are; however, typically a burden on social service programs. As a result, the case could be made that they should pay double tuition.

Nevertheless, as I have mentioned here before, these people are felons. Being in the United States illegally is a felony. Most of them do so under fraudulent documents with fake social security numbers, or by actually committing identity theft; another felony.

Rep. Filipe Reinoso (D-Bridgeport) spearheaded the effort to obtain this giveaway to illegals. But the most obnoxious advocate of this measure was by far Minnie Gonzalez, who threatened the General Assembly during floor debate on May 17th, saying if they continued to treat illegals as “second-class citizens” that she would make life “miserable” for all of them.

I still have yet to see any coverage of her outrageous outburst from any mainstream media outlets, but if anyone can show me where it appears, I would be very interested.

In her veto message, Governor Rell said “This bill does not address the underlying problem that these students face – that they are not legal residents of the United States.”

State Senator Dan DeBicella (R-Shelton) probably summed it up best in commending Governor Rell for the veto: “In a world of limited resources, we need to prioritize financial aid for legal residents over special benefits for illegal aliens – the governor has just done that.”


Robert said...

HH, I try not to resort to sarcasm on the web. It's a virus that spreads like the Andromeda Strain. But those statistics of yours are fantastic.

"Most of them do so under fraudulent documents with fake social security numbers, or by actually committing identity theft.."

"They are; however, typically a burden on social service programs."

So 51% or more of 12 Million + people are both committing fraud and are burdening our social service system? Ok. Sounds great. Listen you get the truck and I'll start rounding them up. I'm sure we can have them all out of here by dinner time right? [/sarcasm]

Frankly I don't even know where to begin when someone starts out with something so patently, outrageously false.

The faliure of the recent immigration reform law (that would have made this law irrelevent regardless of its outcome) is not only a disappointment to over 4% of the population of the United States, but a monument to the ignorant, obstructionist behavior of the right.

Everyone knows despite their majority the left can't agree on anything except a pay raise. There is no one else to blame here (but the GOP) for not making a working compromise.

And now our borders will remain unsecured despite their shirt tearing and teeth gnashing; and a 12 million strong sub class, fugitives and lost within out population will continue to spend the next years growing in numbers, not paying taxes, remaining undocumented, not communicating with authorities, and basically living in desperate fear on a daily basis.

Oh and by the way, these people are felons in the same way Paris Hilton was a felon for her DUI. In the same way that Chris Healy was a felon. A first time offender (although Paris and Chris were multiple offenders weren't they) who is unlikely to commit the same crime again (once they are here.... ) that would have their charge dropped down to a misdemeanor or dropped altogether. And can I tell you how eager the illegals I work with are to make amends for this crime? Most, in my experience will pay almost anything to get into the system and become legal and many, too many get taken advantage of by unscrupulous "American Citizens" who take their money and promise what they can't deliver because they know that the alien is unlikely to report thier illegal behavior.

I am ashamed to be a registered Republican for many reasons as of late. But I don't know how much more I can take of the GOP disinformation machine. Google Illegal Immigration Statistics and gaze upon a wasteland of conservative commentators making vast generalizations, grand exaggerations and outright fabrications in the form of "Reporting" and then hiding behind political rhetoric whenever they get called on it.

Most of them don't even bother to try and cite sources. When you can make up all the facts and no one bothers checking I guess it doesn't matter if you use sources or not.

I could go on and on about how wrong the "common sense" is on this issue but thanks to the GOP it's like whistling in a hurricane at this point.

Don't be part of the problem man. You are better than that. If you say something you should be able to back it up.

Enlightened Republican said...

Robert, you gave me a headache. It is equally repulsive to try and use this issue for political spin against the GOP. There are many Ds on board with this issue. I find this type of spin just as repulsive as those employers who are hiring these illegals at below minimum wages and squeezing out our working class. This issue is much more complicated than can be addressed on a blog. Let's focus on the issue-in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. We turn away tax paying legal citizens from in-state tuition at UCONN every year. Can you in good concience state that they now should compete with non-taxpaying illegal alliens?? At what price is CT going to continue to pass these feel good legislation?

Robert said...

"It is equally repulsive to try and use this issue for political spin against the GOP. There are many Ds on board with this issue. I find this type of spin just as repulsive as those employers who are hiring these illegals at below minimum wages and squeezing out our working class. This issue is much more complicated than can be addressed on a blog. Let's focus on the issue-in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. We turn away tax paying legal citizens from in-state tuition at UCONN every year. Can you in good concience state that they now should compete with non-taxpaying illegal alliens??"

It is my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that the tuition breaks would apply to the entire Connecticut University System. That's Uconn, all the regional universities as well as the coomunity colleges that pepper the state. The same places that I was educated.

So once again, a spin (to use your own words against you.... sorry) takes place where it is implied that the passage of this bill would lead to throngs of Illegal Aliens being led Pied Piper-like to Storrs to take over the spaces of hard working middle class workers kids forcing their kids to what? Never attend college because UConn was their only choice? Nonsense.

I've been to UConn. It's a nice school. A bit of a party school but nice. Personally I think I got a better education at Western.

I think the worst case scenario here would be that a few and I mean a few legal students might end up going to Southern or Western instead of UConn. Forgive me if I don't seem too concerned about that.

My biggest problem with what you said, and what HH said, and what the GOP says about this issue and everything else related to immigration is the tendancy to use generalizations without any proof or citaction.

I'm not afraid to say I don't know if something is true or not. I am equally unafraid to offer something as opinion. The Republican Party, which used to be about fiscal conservatism, small government, strong defense and crime prevention and family values has become a party of obstruction, obfuscation and stereotyping.

There are many Republicans on board with this issue as well. You know why? Because Republicans used to care about helping business and some of them still do. Sadly it is a minority within the party.

Most of them are too busy taking the "common" man's worst ininformed fears and reading them back to him as if they were facts.

Employers are hiring illegals, paying them less than minimum wage and squeezing out our working class? Really? Got any numbers on that or is that just something you read on Ann Coulter's web site? If I call the state or Federal DOL will they have the studies to back this up? Can I go to a wesbite and see a graph or chart at least?

We turn away tax paying legal citizens from in-state tuition at UCONN every year? We do? Maybe it's because their grades weren't good enough; maybe their SAT scores weren't good enough. Are you implying that these poor devils are wandering wastelands now, unable to get an education and out of work because the illegals have taken all the low paying jobs? So if I call the UConn admissions office they will confirm this right?

Guys like you live to use the sound byte. Feel good legislation. That's one of my favorites. As if doing something positive for your fellow man is somehow something to be ashamed of.

Let me offer you a different perspective. There are really only 3 types of legal legislation (I say legal because our state and others pass legislation that is Unconstitutional and gets reversed all the time). Good, bad and benign. One improves the quality of life in this state. One injures the quality of life in this state. One has no effect on the quality of life in this state.

This law may indeed be "bad legislation" in that in the long run it may injure the quality of life in this state. Or on the other hand it may prove to benefit us. That is what studies, and science and statistics and time can tell us.

Yes, this issue is very complicated. But through discourse we gain understanding, so suggesting we don't talk about it because it is complicated is exactly why no one seems to get much of anything done anymore in politics.

What I am saying more than anything else is expressing opinon as fact is a bad bad thing. Too many of us still fall for it and it's becoming a real problem in this country. Say, I think, or in my opinion first. Not only does that allow for discussion, preclude absolutes and encourage discourse but it also allows you to admit you were mistaken in your opinion should your mind get changed. Rather than suffer the embarrasment of stating a wrong fact.

mccommas said...

Bravo Mr. Headless Horseman sir!

Stand your ground.

You of course are right and Thank God Rino-Rell did the right thing for once.

Robert and "Enlightened Republican" are only right about one thing. People are all over the place on this issue. Lots of Republicans in other words are on the WRONG SIDE and lots of liberals want boarder control.

Your stats are fine. Its known to be generally true these people come here for the welfare benefits and to work for employers who pretend to not know they are illegals.

The latter drive down wages for real Americans.


I called nitwit Senator Prague and spoke to her aide. I will share with you any response I get. I basically told her that she was wrong to vote for the bill.

"We could all get gray before the feds act on anything," said Sen. Edith G. Prague, D-Columbia. "How outrageous is this to deny them in-state tuition? I cannot believe it."

The aide didn’t say so but I think she agreed with me.

I think this is a golden issue to use next year against the incumbents.

These people are so incredibly cocky in their lawlessness they are just spoilin for a real fight. I wish I was in Prague’s district. She would pay for that quote with her job.

There are going to be some new faces in the legislature if this issue is used.

But do the Republicans have to guts to use it?

This Republican does.

Robert said...

Your stats are fine. Its known to be generally true these people come here for the welfare benefits and to work for employers who pretend to not know they are illegals.

The latter drive down wages for real Americans.


Great. You've proven me wrong.

Oh wait. No you haven't. You just did the same thing as everyone else and offered opinion and (unsubstantiated) common knowledge as fact.

Use this issue against anyone and you had better come with some real proof if you are campaigning near me. I'll come down and rattle your cage just on general principles, even if I prefer you to the other candidate.

Judy Aron said...

Bravo HH..

Robert you want to review the facts.. looks at federal legislation here dear.. giving illegals in-state tuition breaks essentially eliminates any tiered system of tuition.. and that translates into millions in lost revenue for the state just so your 250 or so illegals can get a break.

Thanks, but this taxpayer isn't going to reward illegal behavior if she can help it. Let them go to school somewhere else. You can whine to Mr. Dodd and Lieberman to make sure we uphold the laws we already have and to reform the morass and bureaucratic BS called INS.

We shouldn't be rewarding illegal activity, period.

Read the law.
By approving this legislation in CT, legislators essentially eliminated higher out of state tuition price for ANYONE because they are by federal law not allowed to allow illegals to take in-state tuition breaks while a citizen from another state is made to pay more.

Federal law (Title 8, Chapter 14, Sec. 1623) states: "an alien who is not lawfully present in the United States shall not be eligible on the basis of residence within a State ... for any postsecondary education benefit unless a citizen or national of the United States is eligible for such a benefit (in no less an amount, duration, and scope) without regard to whether the citizen or national is such a resident."

Giving in-state college tuition to adult illegal aliens residing in each state would give them benefits not given to American citizens in other states ( e.g., war veterans). A 1996 Federal law mandates that if instate rates are given to illegals, those rates must also be given to all applicants of each state's colleges and universities from the other 49 states. Although the law is not actively enforced, giving in-state tuition to illegal aliens is a clear violation of federal law.

Allowing illegal immigrants to get extra special benefits like this is a slap in the face to immigrants who have come here and did so legally. While I understand that some of these kids are not here through any fault of their own, they have an obligation to follow the law, just as other immigrants have done. Let them apply for citizenship - then we'll talk.

Finally "Robert" I am outraged that these pinheads in the Capitol would reward illegals before giving veterans and others who have served our country a break with their education costs. Ask why the bills that supported Military and their family died in committee!

Oh and by the way - if this legislation passed, once these kids graduated college with a degree subsidized by taxpayers where did you think they'd get a job legally? Illegal is still illegal, and anyone hiring them is breaking federal law.

mccommas said...

Thanks Judy for making those points. Its so good to hear this from other people. I am starting to think I am Alice on the wrong side of the looking glass here.

I was thinking the same thing all day yesterday while working in the yard.

These are not "kids"; they are full grown men and women. They are not victims.

I say cuff em, stuff ‘em and deports their sorry butts. The law is the law.

Also that about the residents of other states. How ironic that someone from say Pennsylvania should have to pay a huge amount of money more than someone from another country!

Headless Horseman said...

I understand that this is an issue that evokes some emotion here on both sides.

That said, Robert... as far as "statistics" go on this, do I really need any?

How, in the US, can an "undocumented worker" obtain a driver's license? Be employed at a business? Go to a public school? Only through two means... fraud or identity theft.

To work, these folks need to provide a Social Security number. Either they make one up, or they steal someone's. It's a pretty big black market industry.

My only point here is that children of illegal immigrants, being illegal themselves (regardless of whether its 'their fault' or not)are not entitled to an in-state tuition break ahead of ANY American citizen. In what bizzaro world should we be telling the parent of a natural-born American student and Connecticut resident that they can't get in on a tuition break (there are limits to these you know) because there are illegal immigrants on the list ahead of them.

Interestingly, as a side note, you might want to check out Mexico's laws against illegal immigration into our country. I would be pleased to adopt those as ours.

Headless Horseman said...

Mccomas, thanks the thoughts... please let us know what Prague gives as a response....

Headless Horseman said...

thanks... you said it better than I could have...

Robert said...

Ok, I'm starting to wonder if you guys are even reading my posts or are just assuming that I'm for this law and angry it didn't pass. Let me make this clear. I'm not.

I couldn't care less about this particular law. It's a stupid law and if the feds had gotten off their butts and fixed our immigration system it would have been irrelevant.

My problem, once again, is the manner in which illegals (and HH I have no illusions about their status I don't refer to them with the euphemism "undocumented worker")are described by those who oppose immigration reform and the ignorant folks who regurgitate their opinion as "facts". I realize that is "off Topic" in respect to the actual story here but since these so called "Facts" were presented by HH in the story I felt it was ok to address that.

Responding to each of you in kind.

Judy you are referring mostly to this silly law that was defeated. As stated above I don't care that the law was defeated and you are right it is probably a good thing. A couple of points though: INS is now USCIS. It was changed when it was rolled over under the Department of Homeland Security and the enforcement arm of USCIS is ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Immigrants have no reason to fear INS anymore. They don't exist.

To establish residency to get tuition breaks all you have to do (at least in CT) is live here for a year without mom and dad paying more than 50% of the weight. Big deal. It's just my opinion but that doesn't seem so tough. Additionally, CT has one of the most Veteran friendly tuition policies I know of. As a combat vet myself all my tuition fees were waived and the only thing I had to pay for was my books, associated activity fees and room and board; and this free tuition did not effect my G.I. Bill or any scholarships I received. I am very grateful for this as my education was astonishingly cheap and I sometimes feel a littl guilty when I hear how much in student loans other folks owe.

If a military member is stationed in CT they get resident status as do their spouses and their children and they retain it until they complete their degree even if their parents are redeployed elsewhere as long as they remain enrolled (I think they have to have gaps of less than 2 years in their class taking to remain a resident).

Judy this is just my opinion but I think the state is doing enough for Vets at least as far as tuition goes.

You do seem to be absolutely correct about the law, if passed either forcing the state to fight the feds or giving tuition breaks to every U.S. Citizen regardless of residency. At least that is the way the federal statute you quoted reads.

Lastly, Let them apply for citizenship - then we'll talk.

This one is a favorite of mine. As if illegals are just deciding not to apply for whatever reason.

Judy they can't apply. Since 245I ended on April 30th of 2001 the only legal way to emigrate to the U.S. is to marry a U.S. Citizen or wait 10-20 years in a broken system that repeatedly rewards those who have ignored it and illegally entered. If you were in a foreign country and were told your options are to either wait decades for a quota, that might never come current to come current (and by then your children would probably not be allowed to come with you as they age out if they go over age 21 or get married); or you could enter illegally and wait a few years for a law to pass giving you amnesty what would you do?

We caused this problem with previous laws that gave amnesty but didn't secure the borders. Now it has come home to roost.

mccommas, wow. I'm not sure what to say to that. Here's a fact sheet for you to look at.

And an article that explains the number of agents in an ICE team.

You sure can see how the government could easily round them all up. Assuming 15k Border Patrol agents now along with that 300 member strong ICE group (I know they don't have 300 yet but they will in the next year or so so let's just go ahead and add them in). And what the heck. Let's add the 6000 National Guard who are assisting the Border Patrol until all the agents mandated by 2008 are trained. That equals 21,300 folks out there looking for all the illegals they can grab. Assuming that there are 12 million illegals in the country (and that number is highly speculative and most believe quite low) then each border patrol agent, national guardsman, and Ice investigator only has to catch a mere 536 or so people each. Should be no problem right? I know, that doesn't take into account the anti drug operations, the number of illegals pouring across the border daily or the fact that 21,000 of that 21,300 are on the border and the 12 million illegals are already in country away from the border and pretty much out of their reach. But I'm sure the 300 ICE investigators can pick up their slack. They would only have to catch 40,000 illegals each. No problem. Hey let's see how they are doing.

186,000 removals for all of 2006! Yikes. They better get moving. At that rate it will take them 64 years just to get the ones already here. Hope you are in for the long haul on this one mccommas.

And lastly HH; there you go again. Stating opinion as fact. Let's go in order.

How, in the US, can an "undocumented worker" obtain a driver's license? Be employed at a business? Go to a public school? Only through two means... fraud or identity theft.

Many do commit fraud in my opinion. Many more take advantage of the mile wide loopholes in our state and federal government systems as well as the ignorance of their employers. Also my opinion.

Anyone can call an 800 number and receive a tax ID number from the IRS. They don't ask questions and they don't report to USCIS. This will allow you to file a tax return and is the exact same number of digits as a social security number. This is how aliens pay their tax returns every year. Something they receive nothing back from because as it was pointed out, they aren't citizens. But most (in my opinion and experience in dealing with them) pay their taxes. They have learned through previous amnesty laws that by paying their taxes they pay far less in fines and fees once a law allowing them a path to citizenship passes (at least this is what multiple clients have told me and nearly all my clients both have tax id #'s and pay their taxes). Do you think the government simply holds that money in trust for the day they get their green cards?

When an employer hires someone they are supposed to have the new hire fill out form I-9 and provide proof of work authorization. You would be shocked how many business owners don't even know what an I-9 is. Usually they just file their taxes and then they get a letter from the IRS stating that one of their employees social security numbers either isn't a social security number or it doesn't match the name of the employee given. You know what a lot of the employers do with those letters? Fearful of the IRS and not really understanding the letter it has been my experience that many employers simply toss the letter and hope for the best. As long as they don't get audited the IRS rarely takes any further action and this is where this example falls through the cracks.

Oh, and if an employer should get caught employing illegals (as several of my clients have) the punishment is a joke. Assuming it is even enforced which it usually is not. I can't give you examples without breaking confidentiality. You will have to trust me on this one.

Also many employers simply hire illegals as sub contractors. Issuing them a 1099 instead of a W-2. This eliminates their responsibility to confirm much of anything about the "sub contractor" and leaves the burden of reporting income and taxes entirely on the alien. The ironic thing is that USCIS actually allows aliens to use this time of illegal employment to prove that they have the experience required to file a labor certification case with a sponsor to obtain their legal status.

Also, many illegals obtained their papers and SS# legally but overstayed the time they were allowed to be here. So while they are in the U.S. illegally they committed neither identity theft nor fraud.

It's a pretty big black market industry.

Really? How big. Got any numbers on that? Because as I've stated above it's pretty easy to get around the whole no SS# issue without buying a stolen identity. Even if a savvy employer understands the letter they get from the IRS the illegal could potentially work for that employer for a year or more (depending on the time of year they are hired) before the employer's taxes are filed and the letter from the IRS is received and they are terminated for not having work authorization. Might be rough on a computer programmer. A mason however would probably just find a new boss and roll the dice again.

(there are limits to these you know)

Really? What kind of limits? Because the statute I read pretty much said if you are a resident you get the in state tuition break. I'm paraphrasing but I didn't read anything about any numbers limiting how many folks get that discount. Please, enlighten me.

All I am trying to say, and all I have been saying is that if you pull opinion out and present it as fact in an open public arena it is everyone's moral responsibility to call you on it. And if you don't know what you are talking about it, those who do understand the subject matter should endeavor to enlighten you and encourage you to research the issue on your own. Ignorance may be bliss but it also leads to manipulation, misinformation and a lot of bad decisions.

I'm not trying to troll or bait you. I usually like what you have to say. I just wish you... all of you would be a little more responsible about it and do some research instead of accepting/regurgitating the common dogma.

So in short. Yes. To change my mind on this issue, (and I have always felt that the point of all Blogs is to express opinion and fact to influence and inform the minds of others) you would have to come up with some numbers. Sorry.

My primary concern with immigration is that it is exactly this kind of nonsense that swayed public opinion enough to allow the GOP to kill a bill that at least had a shot of fixing our broken immigration system and securing our borders. Now we will continue to go for more years as the problem goes from wildly unmanageable to exponentially worse. Frankly I don't even like to think about what might happen because 60 old men couldn't agree on a compromise.

Clint said...

Hey Robert,
Can you please, please take a course in brevity in writing?!!

Your posts are out of this world long and I wouldn't even consider reading them, no matter how interested in the subject matter I am.

And for me, I'm with HH on this stuff. Good Thread.

Robert said...

Case. In. Point.

mccommas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mccommas said...

I read most of Robert's last post and still have no idea where he is on this issue except to say that we are not entitled to our opinions.

There has been no response from Prague nor Donny Williams who the aide said she would forward my concerns to.

Robert said...

Of course you are entitled to your opinion mccommas. As soon as you offer one perhaps we can discuss it. All you have done so far is offer fact without basis for proof. That's not opinion that's chicanery.

If you are asking where my thoughts are on this silly law I consider it irrelevant.

If you are asking how I feel about Immigrarion Law as a whole I would say the need to secure our borders and reform the broken immigration system is a crisis now and will be bordering on a national emergency by the time the next congress gets around to considering it again. They should be ashamed they weren't able to address this relatively small area of the law as it is.

My point, in these admittedly massive missives was that presenting opinion as fact (without any basis in reality or offering of proof) is a roadblock to compromise; was used in the recent immigration debate purposely to scuttle negotiations and confuse the issue in the public; and that smart people like yourself and HH should know better than to engage in that sort of intentional obfuscation.

Misinformation almost never serves the public good.

mccommas said...

And what does that mean Robert? It takes few words to say something that you really mean. The basic concepts of the issue aren’t as complicated as all that.

On the one hand you want to "secure our borders and reform the broken immigration system is a crisis now" but you don't want to deport illegal aliens? And you DO want to give away to illegals what amounts to tens of thousands of American dollars worth of higher education that legal residents of this country can’t get?

What about my friend from PA? Why can't that poor working slob get an in-state discount but someone from Mexico can?

That’s just not right man.

* * *

Her Excellency Senator Edith Prague was foolish enough to pen her opinion today in the Norwich Bulletin. This is absolutely MUST SEE.

Check out the comments. That’s the most comments I have ever seen. And every single one of them is ripping Prague a new one.

She may be in trouble in 08. She may be in trouble with her own party!

The right campaign can bring Edith's rein of terror to an abrupt and final halt.

Dare we hope? Will this silver bullet issue finally be enough? The district as redistricted is fairly Republican leaning. The redistricting commission obviously wanted to get rid of both her and Jefferson Davis.

Robert said...


there you go again. Offering opinion as if it were fact with no proof or substantiation. Did you even read my posts? I do not support the illegal immigration tuition bill. It is a stupid law. I cannot say it any plainer. If our immigration system was fixed the people here illegally would have status and therefore would be eligable for the tuition breaks under current law. Making this one unnecessary.

And the few folks who remain illegal rather than getting into the system don't deserve it.

And I don't mind deporting illegals. If you really think 300 agents can get 12-15 million illegals out ofm the country in the next few months I say go for it.

I prefer to remain firmly in reality however. And the reality of the situation is that they can't do it. They can't even make the numbers go down. More come in every year than get deported.

I don't know how to be any clearer with you. If we register all the hard working folks who are here already (the criminals will avoid the system because the background checks will mean they get caught anyway) and use the same bill to provide real reform in our immigration policy and permanently secure our borders then the few immigration agents we have can concentrate on getting rid of the real bad illegals and making this country a safer place for everyone.

Instead we decided to wait a few more years and see what happens.

mccommas said...

More Double talk.

Maybe you should run for state senate.

You do want to deport them but you don’t.

“If our immigration system was fixed the people here illegally would have status and therefore would be eligible for the tuition breaks under current law. Making this one unnecessary”.

What is that? If we fixed out immigration system these jerks would not get in the first place because of our wall and other measures and we would systematically deport those illegals we caught that are already here.

Just because we can’t deport them all tomorrow does not mean we should not deport the ones we do catch. Tomas Sowell said that. I am so glad he did because I have been thinking the same thing for years.

Did you know on of the 9-11 a terrorists was pulled over for speeding?

If someone in that situation is found out by an arm of the government they should be arrested right then and there. Cuff em, stuff ‘em and deport.

That’s the law man. I just ask that it be enforced.

And what do you want me to prove?

Robert said...

I think intelligent people can have an informed disagreement about things mccommas but at this point I can't figure out if you are just trying to get the last word in or if you don't understand my posts. I don't know. I don't have the ability to be any clearer. I'll try for a little synopsis but honestly at this point I doubt it will work.

I've provided statistics above that mathematically prove that it would take more than half a century for our current number of ICE teams to deport all illegals currently in the country.

I've provided links to the governments own numbers that show that the thousands of border patrol agents and national guard on patrol are unable to stop more people from coming in than are going out. So the number of undocumented aliens grows each day.

These facts lead me to believe that trying to deport the 12-15 million undocumented aliens in this country currently is both a foolish and costly endeavor, and in my opinion would cause far more harm to our economy and standing in the international community than any percieved and unprovable benefit.

I've opined that through my own personal experience most of the undocumented aliens I work with are extremely hard working, and would do almost anything for a chance to become legal residents of this country.

I want our borders secure but I recognize that both socially liberal Democrats, and Business leaning Republicans will not allow a security package to pass before the issue of the 12-15 million undocumenteds is dealt with. As long as these disparate interests have any sort of sway in Congress we won't get one without the other.

So in conclusion, our congress's inability to pass a law that both recognizes the flaws in our immigration system and works to fix them while providing the needed funding to secure the border was a massive failure in my eyes owed largely to misinformation, lies and obfuscation largely by the conservative right in all forms of media for the purpose of poisoning the public opinion about undocumented aliens and killing any hope for legislation.

In shorth the security bill got killed because Republicans wanted more control over who would stay and who would go and how much they would pay to stay here. They couldn't get that control so rather than compromise they killed the bill. And when we get a Democrat in office next year, and sadly I have doubt that will happen, the bill that does pass will end up being more liberal and more alien friendly.

You could try and prove any of your or HH's assertion about the effects on the labor market or their criminal activity.

And lastly of the 9/11 terrorists all but 3 were in the country completely legally.

and of the three that were here illegally thier only infraction was overstaying their visa by a relatively short period of time. A very minor transgression and not something someone usually gets picked up and deported for. Additionally the average police officer wouldn't even know how to guage their status.

And yes, We should deport as many of the bad illegals we can along with anyone else who sneaks in once we pass reform and secure our borders. But until then we need to deal with the hand we have.

mccommas said...

Who says we have to deport all 15 million illegals tomorrow?

Like Thomas Sowell says, just because we can’t solve all murder cases, does not mean we should not punish the killers we do catch.

The system does not have to be perfect to be good. How does that saying go – “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good [enough]? Something like that. That’s my opinion.

Mr. Sowell also claims – rightly – that the real reason why our elected representatives killed the Amnesty Bill was because their constituents demanded it be killed in no un-certain terms.

That’s pure Democracy. When a senator’s phone rings off the hook for months and all of his 17 million voters [including his supporters] are all saying the exact same thing than the voters are going to get what they want – or else.

In 2008 there will be both Democrats and Republicans who will not be re-elected because of this issue and all of them will be supporters of Amnesty.

As far as HH's assertion about the effects on the labor market is concerned my opinion is let the lettuce rot in the field. The market will adjust.

I have no problem with some sort of visitor program or other such thing. That’s not the real issue but even if it was I think those Americans who have been breaking immigration laws by hiring illegals in order to turn a profit in their business just aren’t a very sympatric bunch. I really don’t care.

If they can't get Americans to do their jobs than they are going to go out of business. I am not concerned about that.

The market will adjust in some fashion. It always does.